Dr. Teresa Lawrence has found a unique niche teaching project managers how to be more creative and effective by using tools and techniques from Creative Problem Solving. In this episode, she explores how project managers can use divergent and convergent thinking and better use the specific tools they select.
What You’ll Learn
- The definition of a project
- How to know where to start in a project
- The importance of using divergent and convergent thinking in project management
- How to use the activity Card Sort
About Dr. Teresa Lawrence
Teresa Lawrence, PhD, PMP, CSM, provides training, facilitation and coaching in creativity and the application of creative problem solving in all methodologies of Project Management across all industries. In addition to consulting as a project manager and trainer, she provides professional services in the management of strategic initiatives and change. Over 10,000 Project Managers have earned PDUs from Teresa’s workshops, presentations and webinars. Teresa is an alum of the International Center for Studies in Creativity (ICSC) and serves as the VP for Certification Training in the Buffalo PMI chapter. She is the past recipient of Buffalo Business First “Women of Influence” and the University at Buffalo Graduate School of Education “Distinguished Alumni” awards. Teresa is a previous superintendent of schools and the current president of International Deliverables, LLC. You can contact Teresa at firstname.lastname@example.org or find her on projectmanagement.com.
- Teresa’s website: internationaldeliverables.com
- Project Management Institute – projectmanagement.com
- PM Network
- Project Management in Practice
- The Deliberate Creative on C-suite Radio
- Leave a review on iTunes
Think about a project or task you are currently facing. There are many elements that need to get done. Do the technique Card Sort that Teresa mentioned. If you could only do one of the tasks, which one will get you the furthest along right now. Use this to prioritize the top three thing that would have the greatest impact.
Feel like reading instead of listening? Download the free transcript or read it below. Enjoy!
Transcript for Episode #088: Infusing Creativity in Project Management with Dr. Teresa Lawrence
Amy Climer: Welcome to The Deliberate Creative Podcast Episode 88. Today’s episode is about the power of combining Creative Problem Solving and Project Management. I have a special guest on the show today, Dr. Teresa Lawrence. Teresa has a very unique background and expertise in both Project Management — she is a certified project manager — and she has been trained in Creative Problem Solving. For the last many years, she has been teaching teams and organizations how to combine those two so that they can be more creative when they are implementing their projects.
The way I look at creativity is that it is really all about projects. Teresa shares this great definition of a project, which is a deliverable bound by time, and she goes into more depth in that, which you will hear in a moment. But I think of pretty much anytime I am being creative, it is generally related to some deliverable, some project that I want to do. Whether it is something really tiny that is going to take an hour or whether it is something that is big and long that might take months or years. I love this idea of infusing Creative Problem Solving with Project Management.
Teresa mostly works with project managers, but also works with really anyone in organizations who is leading projects. I think you are going to really get a lot out of what Teresa has to share. All right, here is Teresa.
Teresa, thank you for being on The Deliberate Creative Podcast. It is great to have you here.
Teresa Lawrence: Thank you. I am excited to be here. What an honor and a privilege.
Amy Climer: Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
Teresa Lawrence: My work chiefly involves integrating tools and techniques of Creative Problem Solving into Project Management, whether it is traditional Waterfall methodology or Agile/Scrum methodologies, primarily to allow project managers, whether certified project managers or not, not only be invited or encouraged to use specific tools, but provide them the opportunities to explicitly learn them and make decisions about what are the best tools given the project that they are on and where they are in that project itself.
Amy Climer: So you are mostly working with project managers.
Teresa Lawrence: Largely, I work with project managers or department heads of organizations that are keen to facilitate work within their own departments, moving projects along. They might not be traditional projects, but if you think about the definition of a project of a deliverable bound by time, a product, a service or a result, it could be an employee handbook, it could be the construction of a building, it could be the implementation of an EAP support service for employees.
Really, the notion is rather than being effective, efficient and highly organized, let’s think through where we are, what do we want to achieve, what hindrances might we have and what tools might be better employed to get insight, to get understanding, to get ideas. And then from those ideas having diverged, what might be the best tools to utilize in that moment, in that project, in that culture to make decisions about where to go forward.
Primarily, project managers and anyone who recognizes, who is savvy enough that we are not, again, just thinking about the construction of something, but some deliverable bound by time. A unique deliverable that has not existed before that we are going to take from inception to completion and be able to hand off or employ or use.
The Definition of a Project [04:19]
Amy Climer: I love that definition of a deliverable bound by time. I do not think I have heard that before.
Teresa Lawrence: Chiefly, that comes from PMI, Project Management Institute. Again, it can be a very long project. We just reconstructed the Tappan Zee Bridge. It took years to do. Long time. Or it can be a simple short project. If you think about this podcast that we are doing together right now is in of itself a project. It is a deliverable bound by time. We have looked at scope, we have looked at time, we have looked at scheduling. We have determined the technology; how we are going to make this happen. So a deliverable bound by time; a product, a service or some kind of result.
Amy Climer: Cool. I definitely am going to use that. You talked a minute ago about finding the right tools. It sounds like in the work that you do, you are spending a lot of time thinking about and teaching what tool is the best to use for this specific situation.
Finding the Right Project Management Tools [05:17]
Teresa Lawrence: Let me just backtrack a little bit. Project Management Institute, they offer eight certifications. And whilst not directly alluding to divergent and convergent thinking, there are over 600 tools that they recommend project managers use in order to achieve the tasks and complete the activities that bring a project to completion. Of those 600, if you take out duplicates, there are about 200. And of those 200, I am suggesting that about a third of them can be traced back to creativity. More importantly, a variety of the stages of Creative Problem Solving.
The challenge that comes is that project managers receive certification, they are highly experienced, they are doing their work and really nowhere are they provided explicit instruction on the tools that they are asked to use. If they are lucky enough to see brainstorming in action, why are they not auspicious to have had that opportunity? But if they are simply asked to use brainstorming as a tool, would it not be helpful if they had a little bit of the background that is a divergent tool. It is only meant for this. It is best utilized in this environment. Whereas, if you were looking at something else as a means of ideating, you might want to consider a different tool and here is how it comes.
What I find is that as much as I do a lot of teaching, facilitating and I am hired to move projects along, the number one thing, rather than focusing on a tool, has been to help project managers, anyone involved in any type of project to have the clear understanding of the guidelines of divergent thinking and convergent thinking and that extreme necessary need for the dynamic balance between the two.
Once they have those, then we can leverage ourselves into Creative Problem Solving. Or looking at the tools that the industry project management puts forth and say, “Okay, now let’s reconcile where would we use them, how would we use them.” I might even go so far as to say, “Of the many recommended tools from Project Management, the industry, we might be better served to explore their origins in creativity and in fact, swap out some of the recommended best practices for even better best practices, taking them explicitly and directly from Creative Problem Solving and creativity.”
Again, teaching directly what tools are utilized, taking a step backwards and saying, “Let’s understand how we use the tool.” That is what we call the technique of the tool, that balance between the two.
Amy Climer: Also the theory behind the tool. Understanding this is a divergent tool so if you want more ideas, if you want to think bigger, bolder, use one of these tools. But if you are trying to converge and select and sort, do not get into brainstorming, focus on a convergent tool.
Teresa Lawrence: Exactly. Many times, there are so many tasks that we have to achieve when we make our way from initiating through planning, through execution, monitoring, controlling and closing out projects that we can ebb and flow between a variety of challenges that are ambiguous, that are complex. And again the question is: have you been trained on the tool on recognizing where are you in that problem, therefore, allowing you to choose by design, by purpose of different tool the necessary component that we know from creativity is being skilled and understanding this is a divergent tool, this is a convergent tool?
Again, the number one take away; in all of my webinars, articles, presentations, the feedback that I get from project managers is usually something like this, “Where have you been all my life?”
Amy Climer: That is awesome!
Teresa Lawrence: If they can just understand, let’s be clear, these are the guidelines, we are soliciting ideas, we are going for stuff and things, and then let’s be very conscientious to transition to now we are vetting, and now we are selecting and these are the guidelines for that. And then, now that we are clear that we are going to be vetting or selecting, let’s think about all the tools that are available to us and be conscientious and deliberate with the tool that we choose.
Amy Climer: Basically, you are teaching project managers the basics of Creative Problem Solving, specifically, the divergent, convergent thinking. Do you also teach them the stages of Creative Problem Solving and how that fits in with a project?
How Creative Problem Solving Fits in With Projects [09:54]
Teresa Lawrence: Often times, I do. We can overlay them. If you think about a traditional project, again, going from initiating to closing, and we will overlay the beginnings of Creative Problem Solving from really being deliberate, what is the challenge we are attempting to solve? Many times we know this. We will bring stakeholders together and they wish to have a certain outcome, but really the question is, is that the outcome? Is that the problem that you are trying to solve? And allowing them to really start to think about let’s determine what the challenge is and then moving through what would that look like? What might be all the things that could be related to that?
Using tools to prioritize of all the things that we could put into this project, which ones have impact, which ones are meaningful, which ones have greatest benefit. Being able to prioritize, make selections from those. And then even as we go from planting to execution to monitoring and controlling, we are constantly asking ourselves, what might be all the things, how to, and then assessing what are the best things to do? What are the other things that we might want to do?
As much as I do tremendous training on Project Management itself, I am known for infusing creativity and Creative Problem Solving so that we are always open to novelty. Being able to handle the ambiguity. Being able to handle the complexity of what it is that we are trying to do and literally, managing the management of the project.
Amy Climer: That is great. I am curious, Teresa, what successes have you seen in teams that have used both of these processes together? When they are cognizant of Project Management and Creative Problem Solving and they are overlaying them, what happens?
Teresa Lawrence: The first thing that typically happens is that people say, “Isn’t this going to add a whole lot more time if we make these conscious choices to select a tool, remind ourselves of the guidelines of that tool then do that tool versus we know what we should be doing. We will just organize them, prioritize them and do the first top three things first. Or we will quickly asses a risk and group them together and divide them. You take care of this, we will assess those and you do that.” Initially, there is a bit of a push back, “We are spending more time before we get to the work.”
The benefits that I find when individuals realize that the ground rules for divergent and convergent thinking, those have not changed. We are really only having to learn that once. When we utilize and understand the tools and we practice them as we practice anything else, we can immediately jump into them and utilize them. Once we get past that notion of is this going to add more time, we get to enjoy and they see the satisfaction and benefit of the volume, the quantity of the options that they might not have otherwise considered.
The thing that we know about ideas, they do not go stale. Of all the ideas that we come up with, the ones that, as a group, as a team, when we switch to convergent thinking and vetting ideas allow those ideas that really get on point, that solve the problem, that leverage us more forward, we have immediate buy-in, we have an easier or quicker understanding of how this might look as we play itself out and implement it, and there is a greater sense of manageability, of possibility, of likelihood of reaching an intended outcome than just real quick having consensus, “Fine, we’ll do that, let’s go.”
Amy Climer: And people would also be, perhaps, more invested in the end result.
Teresa Lawrence: Perhaps, more invested, right. If you think about what might be all the ways that we can solve something or do something wherever we are in a project, you know all the tools. We can do brainstorming and have everybody — we can easily want to transition to brain writing if we have individuals that are not co-located. A lot of times in Project Management, think how small the world is, we might have team members that are across an ocean. And so if we want to capture all of the ideas, let’s think about the tools that we have. Let’s be methodical and commit to getting them, as much as we want to be methodical in gaining them is how might we vet them.
Again, once we have tools in our toolkit, we can be more conscientious about what is the work at hand? What is the best way to go about doing it? Are we diverging? Are we converging? What is our environment? What are our resources? What is our timeframe to be cognizant of the tool that we want to use to achieve the activities that, ultimately, allow us to complete the project at hand?
Amy Climer: Teresa, can you give an example of a specific project that you worked on where you saw a team get to a different result and be more creative by using some of these Creative Problem Solving techniques infused with Project Management?
Creative Problem Solving and Project Management Techniques at Work [15:03]
Teresa Lawrence: Certainly, I can. Again, what I would like to do is draw attention to, again, the definition of a project; a deliverable, a service, a result, a product. Here is an example that might shake the audience a little bit. Working with an organization, a not for profit organization, they were in the process of hiring a new executive director. In and of itself, that is a project. We want to think through the process of soliciting, of interviewing, and then selecting.
We were able to employee a variety of tools and techniques to have them diverge. What are all the traits and characteristics that we need in this individual? Being able to go through some convergent thinking to see what are the most important things that they would want to see. Transitioning back to divergent thinking to say what might be all the ways that they could exhibit these traits and characteristics? Converging to select them. We went through this process of determining what are characteristics, how might they show them?
What was most powerful for this group is that having a certain trait, they determined, was a high priority of this individual. They must be able to do — in fact, it was grant writing. When we put together a matrix, that was part of their selection criteria. Using a criteria matrix, we were able to rank individuals and this one individual who everybody at face value loved, did not have grant writing experience. Not using Creative Problem Solving, not being explicit and being open to novelty and how to and how might, they would have fallen by the wayside.
I was able to say to them, “If this individual had that trait, would they be the ideal individual to select?” And they said yes. “Being able to switch to a challenge statement, how might we support this individual in gaining this trait, this skill, this ability to write grants, would they become appealing?” Immediately, they jumped right into solutioning. Diverging again. They said, “Well, we could send her to trainings, we could pair her up, we could do this and we can do that.” We were able to say using techniques, using tools, an individual who otherwise would have been dismissed was vetted, was evaluated and we came up with solutions to be able to support them. In turn, they selected that individual and they are having tremendous success.
Amy Climer: Oh, that is great.
Teresa Lawrence: Again, not necessarily using tools and techniques in a traditional project, but this notion of the outcome, the deliverable bound by time was going to be selecting a new executive director, they were able to diverge, converge, and then what we love about Creative Problem Solving is be open to novelty, to develop all ideas before we make decisions. Had we not done that, they would not have the executive director that they wanted.
Amy Climer: That is a great story. It is interesting for me listening to you talk about that because that process you described feels very normal, very natural. And maybe that is just my lens from creativity and Creative Problem Solving. I am listening to you and I am like, “Yeah, this process sounds really normal.” That we would come up with a list of qualities and skills that we want this person to have and then we might rank them and decide what is most important. And then we have a criteria matrix and then, “Wow, we love this person, but they do not have our top skill.” And then this question, “Well, could they develop this skill? How can we support them?” That feels very natural to me.
But my question is — I know very little about the Project Management world so I only am coming from the lens of Creative Problem Solving — for people in the Project Management world, is that fairly unusual or what about that is unusual?
Teresa Lawrence: I think the point that you make is one of these simple, profound statements. In that you say, “Doesn’t that seem logical and normal?” What I am suggesting is what might be the increased benefit and outcomes if we develop that? If we train that? Project managers, you go through one or two projects in your industry, like any industry, you become a bit routinized in getting the work done and we have default tools and techniques that we go to.
The question is in negotiating all the dynamics, the ambiguousness, the complexity of projects, wouldn’t make more sense than to be continually falling back on what worked previously to be able to go to a tool kit that says, “Hang on, first, let’s asses and let’s determine what is taking place? Where are we in solving this problem? Where are we in this challenge?” And then being deliberate. And maybe saying, rather than using that tool, let’s use this tool to see if we can come up with a different, better outcome in solving this problem. Than just simply — we know this — stereotypically we need ideas, people default to brainstorming. Depending on where you are, that might not be the best tool.
To your point, it seems logical and natural to go through the process. What I am suggesting is how might we better employ specific deliberate tools and techniques in the process? The process does not change, how we negotiate that process might be different.
Amy Climer: That makes sense. I am all about deliberate creativity, so I love it.
Teresa Lawrence: Right, being deliberate.
Amy Climer: Yeah. Teresa, if somebody wanted to start learning more about integrating Project Management and Creative Problem Solving, where can they go to learn more, besides listening to this podcast?
Teresa Lawrence: I offer a variety of webinars and articles and training sessions that have come out. I would suggest, the best resource, whether you are certified or non-certified project manager, is to join and become an active participant on Projectmanagement.com. Projectmanagement.com is the online community for Project Management Institute and with millions of people belonging to Project Management in the world, you have access to a variety of resources, a variety of individuals.
My niche, what I provide and I have a handful of webinars that are posted there, is providing the opportunity to be both a PMP and highly trained in Creative Problem Solving to provide those opportunities to understand both disciplines and where they intersect. So going online and looking at some of the webinars that are out there. There is a conference coming up with Projectmanagement.com on March 22nd, 2018, the PMXPO whereby lots of opportunities to learn, to listen in. I have a webinar that will be out there.
The challenge that we find is that the explicit training on the tools and techniques that are recommended to project managers is missing. And that is where I come in. Again, what tools, if you are asked to use them, do you understand them? Have you been taught them? When would you use them? Again, the chief thing that I have as a takeaway from everything is if we could just impart guidelines of divergent, guidelines of convergent and the notion of a dynamic balance between the two, people could muddle their way forward. Like a little bit of creativity is better than no creativity. If even we knew and understood those guidelines, individuals can do that.
Again, I have a handful of webinars on Projectmanagement.com that are pretty explicit to imparting those understandings of divergent, convergent and the balance between the two and how they explicitly connect Project Management to include the cognitive thinking skills from Creative Problem Solving and the Thinking Skills model.
Amy Climer: Nice. I will be sure to put the links to those webinars in the shownotes for everyone. It sounds like what you are saying is that a way to start would be learn about divergent and convergent thinking, and a few of the tools related to those two elements of thinking, and infuse those into the projects you are doing.
Teresa Lawrence: Absolutely. And if anybody, even the tools that they are using, to the best of their ability that they are using, and they most likely are highly effective in them, if they could add that foundational understanding, number one, of divergent and convergent thinking, and then number two, spend some time doing a little bit of research on the tool that you are using. There are guidelines. There are things to do first. There are things to do second.
For example, my favorite tool lately is Card Sort as a mean of ranking and prioritizing. Not so much what do we like, what is first, what is second, but the impact, the magnitude. Now that we have already selected these things to do that fit into our project, which ones have the greatest magnitude? If we were to understand how and in what ways we could imply that tool to a variety of our settings, if individuals had an understanding of divergent and convergent thinking, they would be able to pick up that tool and match and fix and adapt it to their situation.
I think these two things go so strongly hand-in-hand. Spend time in understanding the foundations of Creative Problem Solving — divergent and convergent thinking — and then spend time in determining the origins and the flow and the process and the guidelines of the tools that you are using.
Again, I suggest that largely, probably two-thirds of the tool or techniques that the industry of Project Management is suggesting project managers utilize are anchored in the field of creativity. And yet, we do not make that connection back to that to say, “Go to the origin, understand that.” Gosh, think about the time, energy and resources you would save if you had the understanding of the tool and technique.
Amy Climer: Yeah, absolutely. Can you go back and just briefly explain what Card Sort is in case some listeners do not know that tool?
How to Use the Activity Card Sort [25:53]
Teresa Lawrence: Sure. Card Sort is, again, currently one of my favorite tools. What it allows you to do is rank and prioritize and compare options that you like and options that you are willing to consider. Usually, the cut off number is up to fifteen options. Thinking you have already diverged and you have come up with things that you want on your project or things that you want to achieve or places that you want to go on your vacation, and the question now is these are all great ideas, how do I prioritize them?
What we do is that we will number them and then ask the question, things like; which of these options would be the most exciting thing for us to do on our vacation? That will get the highest score. Which one is exciting but would not give us the most fun? That would get number one. We go back to the choices that are remained. Of the remaining choices, which one gives us the greatest impact, the most easiest to influence or market, the most interest that the community would have?
We back and forth between greatest-least, greatest-least, greatest-least and then we are left with, either if we are doing it alone, our prioritized list. But if we are doing this with multiple people and stakeholders, we are then able to summarize across these ideas, who said which was most important, and we end up with a collective ranking of ideas. There is nothing greater than getting consensus and getting buy-in for everybody to have individually ranked what they think is important and then collectively, across the group, being able to summarize that and aggravate that and come up with a group.
Card Sort is a great tool of summarizing, prioritizing and ranking from existing opportunities and options. Where I find that to be recently of profound impact for project managers is we have already been down the path of determining what are our options, but I like to leverage them in terms of implementation. That, I think, is sometimes the hardest part. It is like, “Now what do we do? What is the first thing that we do?” Rather than organizing around a schedule; this is what we need to do first, this is what we need to do second. Not prioritizing options, but rather looking to prioritize based on the magnitude of impact from among those options.
That might be, of all the things that we are going to do in this project, which one, if completed, would our public love the most? Like where can we get a return on that? Let’s capitalize on that. Or in a selection process, which one gets most of the stakeholders pleased and happy that we can do? And then we can transition to who is doing what, when. Again, rather than prioritizing we like this idea best of all of them or this is the first thing to do, the magnitude of impact, even if it is an option that will take more time, energy and resources.
Think about it. If we do the thing that has greatest impact first, some of those other things that follow, they just fall into line naturally, almost solving themselves. Again, Card Sort to rank, prioritize, usually no more than fifteen options. Prioritizing them for magnitude, prioritizing them for scheduling, prioritizing them for interest, money, whatever the case may be.
Amy Climer: Just to interject there, when you say Card Sort, all of these ideas are literally on cards like note cards or on post-it notes and people are physically moving them, sorting them in the space like on the table or on the wall.
Teresa Lawrence: Correct. If we have fifteen ideas, what we would have are the narrative or a sentence of what the idea is. We would label it maybe one through fifteen, one through seven. Whichever we had. Then the question that we would ask ourselves is of all these options, which one has the greatest impact? Which one has the least impact? Or if we are looking at a schedule; of all of these activities that have to be completed, which one has to be completed first. Which one could be last? Then we go back to those tasks that are laid on the table and say, “Of the remaining tasks that are at hand, which one would have to be completed first, which one could be completed last?”
Recently, we worked with a customer that was looking to put some materials on the market and they had about thirteen things that they could release. And we had a group of about eight people and we went through this Card Sort. We had eight people answering the question which one would be accepted in the market fastest? They were for-profit organization looking to make some income. The eight individuals looked at all of the products that they could release and we all picked the first one. Then we all picked the one that said, “Meh, this might not have buy-in as quickly.” And then from among those, what is the next thing?
Everybody in kind of a focused group was able to rank them and then imagine of all of the products that they could release, we tabulated and aggregated the order that individuals had ranked them. And then they could see, of the things that they wanted to release, what did that focus group collectively say they would easily and more readily buy into automatically. The impact, and again this is where I go back to if we have project managers, individuals working on any type of project, spending time on understanding the tool, learning the tools, think about the impact they might have.
And again, that is where I come in. Being trained in Creative Problem Solving, being an alum of the International Center for Studies in Creativity and being, many years now, a project manager, I can jump into that space. The thing about Project Management is that it is industry neutral. I can come in, drop in to where you are in your project, do the training on the tools and the techniques that might be best suited for your project and certainly rely on me, but allow you to be a bit self-sufficient in this project and the future projects.
Amy Climer: Great. Teresa, wow! You have just shared a ton of information and value for everybody. I always like to end the podcast with a weekly challenge; one thing that listeners can do this week to apply something that they learned listening to you. What would be a weekly challenge that you can give listeners?
Weekly Challenge [32:52]
Teresa Lawrence: I would ask them to think about, if they do not go formally through card sorting, any project, any task that they are currently facing, there are many things that have to get done, whether you are planning a vacation, planning a dinner, purchasing a car. I would ask them to think about this tool and technique, Card Sort, and write down the things that are important for them to have understanding of or to do that would allow them to complete that project, that task. And then ask themselves, in order of magnitude, if I could not get to all the others, if I did this, I could be further along, have greater understanding, have better sense of what I need to do. Of all the things that are here, which one would help, but it is not so important?
What that would allow them to do to go back and forth very important, very helpful, not so important, not so helpful, they would be able to prioritize the top three things that if they did those would impact more significantly than if they did anything else in achieving the outcome of the project that they currently have at hand.
Amy Climer: That is great. Thank you. Teresa, if people want to learn more about you and your work, where can they go?
Teresa Lawrence: Thank you. We have a couple of things that are coming up. I have an article coming out in PM Network which is the journal from Project Management Institute. In the February addition, that is coming out. I will also be doing a training session in Boston University; Project Management in Practice. That happens in June. Also, I would encourage individuals to see if they want to log in on March 22nd to Projectmanagement.com to participate in that PMXPO for some training opportunities.
My website is www.internationaldeliverables.com and just putting Teresa ahead of that would allow you to email me. I am certainly on LinkedIn, but if you want to find me where I am most hopping and most active, I would encourage you to find me Projectmanagement.com.
Amy Climer: Great. Awesome! Thank you so much, Teresa, for being on the show.
Teresa Lawrence: Thank you. My pleasure, Amy. Thank you so much.
Amy Climer: Thank you, Teresa, for sharing so much with us today. Super awesome to have you on the show.
Thank you so much for listening to the show. I really appreciate all of you who are tuning in. I never take your time for granted. It means a lot to me that you are here and that you care about increasing creativity for yourself and your team. Super awesome!
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If you have any questions about creativity that you want covered on future shows, feel free to email me. You can find all my contact information at www.climerconsulting.com. Head on over there, you will find my contact info as well as all the other episodes on The Deliberate Creative Podcast.
Thanks, you all. Have a wonderful creative week. Talk to you next time. Bye.
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