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About Jason Kotecki

Resources Mentioned in the Episode

• The Cure Adultitis Institute
• Jason Kotecki’s website (with awesome artwork): escapeadulthood.com
• Free Tinkering ebook by Jason Kotecki
• Penguins Can’t Fly book by Jason Kotecki

The Weekly Challenge

Start a Tinkering Project. What small project can you add that will allow you more tinkering? Use one of Jason’s examples or invent your own. Share your project in the comments below!

Transcript

Feel like reading instead of listening? Download the PDF Transcript or read it below. Enjoy!

Transcript for Episode #043: Tinkering with Jason Kotecki

Amy Climer:  Welcome to The Deliberate Creative Podcast Episode 43. Today’s episode is about Tinkering. and I have a special guest on today, Jason Kotecki, who is an artist, author and speaker. His mission in life is to teach the world about Adultitis, and really to cure the world of Adultitis. He will explain all about Adultitis and what that is and how you cure it, and he is also going to talk about tinkering. Tinkering is, I think, a very powerful process that can help us be more creative and can certainly help us get out of Adultitis, so he is going to talk about that. It is a really fun interview and he gives a good challenge and a fun freebie at the end, which I think you will enjoy. I also want to apologize to you all. I have a cold so I might sound a little funny. Nothing I can do about that, but the show must go on, right?

Before I introduce you to Jason, I wanted to share with you all a new iTunes review on The Deliberate Creative Podcast. This review is from RNTDMNDS. We could probably spend some fun tinkering time figuring out what that acronym means. The review is titled: Wide In Scope Deep In Learnings, five stars. And they said, “This is a great podcast for anyone who would like to extend his understanding in the world of creative thinking. There is something for everyone, the beginner as well as the intermediate practitioner of systematic creative thinking. I mainly like the chapters aimed at managers of creative teams. The style is clear and structured. Highly recommended.” Thank you so much for the review on iTunes. Love it.

If you have not written a review and you would like to share with the world what you think of this podcast, head on over to www.climerconsulting.com/itunes and that will take you directly to the iTunes page, you can leave a review. It only takes a couple of minutes, but it does take iTunes about 24 hours to post a review. So if you do not see it right away, do not worry, you probably did it right, just iTunes does some behind the scenes things to it. Thank you so much for that review. We are at 40 reviews now, woo-hoo! Yeah, let’s get some more out there.

Before I introduce you to Jason Kotecki, I want to tell you that during the interview you might hear some funny background noises once in a while. Those sounds are fighter jets flying over my house. It is just the byproduct of living in a modern world, I suppose. But yeah, sometimes the fighter jets go over. They are super loud, so the mic picked them up a little. Yeah, nothing I could do about, it is just the way it goes. It adds a little ambience I guess. It is pretty faint, I do not even know if you will notice it. I noticed it, but I wanted to give you that heads-up in case you are wondering what is going on. All right you all, here is Jason and he is going to teach you all about Adultitis and Tinkering. Jason, welcome to The Deliberate Creative Podcast. Thanks for being here.

Jason Kotecki: Great to be here, Amy. How are you?

Amy Climer: I am doing well. Let’s start out and tell the listeners a little bit about yourself; who you are and what you do.

Jason Kotecki: Okay, well let’s see. Short version, I am a artist, author and speaker and together with my wife Kim we have a mission of annihilating Adultitis in the world, particularly in ourselves and people we run into and organizations we work with. That is what we kind of do. We kind of specialize in helping people figure out how to create the lives that they want to create, helping businesses break free from a lot of the rules that do not exist that we often find ourselves living by, and generally just trying to make our lives more awesome. That is kind of what we are about.

Amy Climer: That is awesome. You mentioned Adultitis, so what is that?

What is Adultitis? [04:45]

Jason Kotecki: Adultitis is what happens when you forget what it was like to be a kid. It’s pretty much the worst disease on the face of the earth that most people do not know about, which is why it is our mission in life to get the word out about it. If you go to www.adultitis.org, the homepage of The Cure Adultitis Institute, there is a 12 question intake that you can take to find out what stage you have, because there are different stages, Amy. Negative it very rare. I can hardly even count on one hand how many people that are negative. If you remember Steve Irwin, the crocodile hunter guy, he was probably negative. Everything I’ve ever seen, he had no Adultitis whatsoever.

Amy Climer: So negative is good.

Jason Kotecki: Negative is good. That is the weird thing about health care is that negative — they will be like, “I am sorry, the test results have come back. They are negative,” and you start crying and you realize that is actually good. There is Stage 1, Stage 2 and then if it’s really bad, if you have full-blown Adultitis, that’s top of the line right there and you do not want that.

Symptoms of Full-blown Adultitis [05:49]

Amy Climer: What is a symptom of full-blown horrible Adultitis?

Jason Kotecki: Everyone has those people in their lives that you see them walking down the hallway and you just want to turn the other way. They are the kind of people who — do you remember Debby Downer from Saturday Night Live?  

Amy Climer: Yeah.

Jason Kotecki: No matter what good thing could happen, she would have something that would turn it around. You might be excited that you just paid off your car payment and it is all paid off and then she would bring up the fact that now you will have a lot of repairs that will start to pile up, like those bills. That would be an example of someone who has a totally — they just cannot see the good in anything pretty much.

Amy Climer: Yeah, I know what you are talking about. I am sure none of our listeners are in that state, but perhaps they might have mild Adultitis.

Jason Kotecki: Yeah, most people are in Stage 1, Stage 2. The full-blowns, they would not be listening to your show because they are not interested in making themselves any better.

Amy Climer: They do not want to be creative.

Jason Kotecki: That is right.

Cures for Adultitis [06:51]

Amy Climer: What are some cures for Adultitis?

Jason Kotecki: Cures for Adultitis are basically — one thing is to hang out with people who do not have Adultitis. That is one of the most obvious helpful ones. There are just so many, just silly little things. I mentioned earlier breaking rules that do not exist, which there are a million of, but one that is pretty common is that you are not supposed to eat dessert first. Eating dessert first, especially if you ordered at a restaurant, that kind of freaks the waiter or the waitress out. They are not sure what to do about that, that you are ordering the entrée second, they do not know what to do but it is a great way to beat Adultitis. The best way really is, I call those small rebellions. They are like little, tiny, seemingly inconsequential acts of rebellion that are basically devastating to Adultitis because it hates those sorts of things.

What is Tinkering? [07:55]

Amy Climer: Nice. One of the things you have talked about in your blog, and you and I have talked about, is tinkering as one of the many cures for Adultitis. Can you explain a little bit of that? What is tinkering?

Jason Kotecki: If you look up tinkering in a dictionary, it basically says it is to repair, adjust or work with something in an unskilled or experimental manner. The two most important words in my opinion on that definition are unskilled and experimental. One of the things that we get messed up as adults is we forget how to tinker. If you think when we were little, we did it all the time. My daughter Virginia, she is two now, but when she learned how to walk about a year ago, and she let go of that couch for the first time and she fell. She fell, but she did not get up and say, “Oh my gosh! You guys are such amazing walkers. I could never be as talented as you as walking,” and then just quit.

When my daughter Lucy learned how to ride a bike she did not race around the block her first time. She fell, she skinned her knees, just like I am sure you did. The problem is as we get older, I do not know what happened, why we think we need to be experts at something on our first try, or we need to know exactly how something is going to turn out before we take the first step. So I think that tinkering is one of the best things we can do, not only to make our lives better, but to just foster that sense of curiosity that lies within us and help our creativity to blossom.

Amy Climer: I love that example of your daughter walking because it seems almost ludicrous that she would make any comment of like, “Oh my gosh, I am not good at this.” Of course, she is going to get up and laugh about it, but adults we do that all the time. We try something once and we are like, “Oh yeah, I am not good at that.” It is like, “Wait, of course you are not good at it. It is your first time doing it.”

Jason Kotecki: Right. You know that book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, I am sure many of your listeners are familiar with it. He talks about how there is a threshold of 10,000 hours; you put 10,000 hours in that something, you are going to be an expert. But what is obvious, but easy to forget, is hour number one, hour number ten, hour number 100, you suck at whatever that was. We forget that little obvious fact of life that kids do not seem to have a problem with.

Amy Climer: Yeah, it is so true. We do not take many opportunities as adults to put ourselves in those situations and learn something new.

Jason Kotecki: Right. For me tinkering, there are two parts so it. The number one key is to take action. Sometimes we get so paralyzed by what we should do, what we could do, what should be the first step, all that sort of thing and so tinkering is like a baby step. It is important to just kind of get things going. Then the second thing I think is key is to sort of take the pressure off. Just because something fails does not mean we are a failure. Just because my daughter fell down on her first try does not mean she is a terrible walker and she will never be able to walk. And I think we get so caught up in what if it does not work, what will people think, what if it fails, all that sort of fear. Tinkering is an opportunity to let go of the outcome and just to see what happens and to have that curiosity of I do not know what is going to happen but let’s just see what happens and see where it leads.

Amy Climer: Yeah, and I think especially putting yourselves in a situation where if it fails it is not that big a deal.

Jason Kotecki: Right. Which seems obvious, but we get in our own head. That is part of Adultitis. It is convincing us all the time that it is a big deal if we mess up or if we do not know exactly how it will all turn out.

Examples of Tinkering [00:11:47]

Amy Climer: Can you give some examples of tinkering that you have done in your own life or that you would recommend?

Jason Kotecki: There is one I can think of. Basically my whole life has been tinkering, I just did not even realize it probably till the last few years. Because I have always been very shy and reserved and pretty much when I was a kid I was scared of everything. So how I got to a point where now I make a living speaking in front of strangers, of which my mom thinks is a miracle, is tinkering. It is making little baby steps and every time you make a baby step your comfort zone gets a little bit bigger and it stays that big for the rest of your life.

But as far as professionally, there are two things that I could talk about, one that worked and one that did not. The one that did not is we used to have an office downtown Madison on Willy Street. It was mostly set up just to be kind of a studio and mixed use sort of thing, but someone suggested that we should open it up for retail. If we are going to be there anyway, you might as well just have it so people can buy your stuff. So we did and it was a tinkering. We did not really know what would happen.

And through the process we learned that we, (a), did not like running a retail shop, and I did not like that aspect of the business of managing inventory, making sure the shop was clean all the time, being open at normal hours, that sort of thing. So we completely went in a different direction, which I guess you could say is sort of a failure but it was not because it allowed us to see really what we were good at and what we enjoyed. But we never would have known that if we had not have tried it and experimented with it. It was a great way to tinker because we did not open up a shop on State Street with a gigantic rent just to see how it is. It was a good way to ease into it.

Another example of what I have done that has worked is, as a speaker, there are certain audiences that are kind of bread and butter for me, ones I know that I really enjoy and they are going to respond to my message. But sometimes you just do not know and so sometimes I will take a gig for a crowd that I have never spoken in front of just to see what happens. And one that I did a couple of years ago was for a credit union. I did not really know if they would be a good fit, but as it turned out — and I got to research them more — people who work at credit unions are really about the mission of helping their members, which is a lot different than other financial services institutions.

So it ended up being an amazingly good fit that we have now done a lot of stuff for different credit unions. And I never would have known had I not been willing to try an audience that frankly it could have bombed, they could have said, “This guy is the worst speaker ever, get him out of here.” You just never know, but being willing to tinker helped me to open up a whole new market that certainly would not have been obvious to me at the time.

Amy Climer: That is a great example. I think credit unions are really prevalent here in Madison and before I moved here I did not even know what a credit union was. And one day I was doing a team building program with a credit union and I accidentally said the word bank and I was like, “What did you do? You cannot! That is like a four letter word!” I was like, “Oh my gosh!” But they are super fun people. I love them.

Jason Kotecki: Yeah, they are very mission-based, which usually that is the type of audience that I really connect the most with.

Amy Climer: I love that you gave these two examples, one that was the “failure” I guess you could say, because I think so much of succeeding is actually figuring out what does not work. When you figure out, “Okay, we are not going to do the shop on Willy Street and we know what we do not want to do,” and it helps you kind of narrow in more. I have definitely had those experiences when I started my own business and there were certain type of programs like oh no, I do not do those anymore. It just was a bad fit. But you do not know, you have to say yes to start.

Jason Kotecki: In the beginning stages like Kim and I — my wife — we talk about spaghetti throwing. We did a lot of spaghetti throwing. It is another way of tinkering. You throw a bunch of stuff up at the wall and see what sticks. And in the early days especially most of it does not work. The trick, I think as you become successful, is to keep tinkering and experimenting so that you can keep growing, as opposed to just be set in your ways and slowly dying, basically is what happens there.

Amy Climer: And I think that is one thing that happens with organizations, they find something that works, they gain some momentum, it is going well and then they are like, “Well, this works, let’s not make any changes.” But then they start getting stagnant and everyone else is changing and they are not, and then it is like, “Okay, you have to make those changes, you have to tinker, even as a company.”

Jason Kotecki: It is easy to think that not tinkering, like playing it safe, doing the same thing, is safe and it is actually not. If you look at Blockbuster who was completely decimated by Netflix in a very short amount of time, they basically stood back and did nothing and now they are out of business. A lot of times we think it is risky to tinker and experiment, but it is actually risky not [to tinker]. There are a lot of great stories about how a lot Google’s products started out as experiments and side projects that then became huge parts of their business. The ones that stink we never heard about, but they had ones that did not stink. They are always in that mentality of trying to figure out new experiments, new things to try.

Amy Climer: Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to ask you about a blog post that you wrote earlier this year, on January 1st, where you talked about how you are going to spend one day of the week in your studio tinkering and making art. I am just curious, how has that been for you? Here we are in late March, 12 weeks in, how is that going?

Jason Kotecki: It is going good. For the last three years, I do a year end review, an annual review and it always is that I wish I had spent more time in the studio. I just kind of got sick of it this time, like seriously this is ridiculous. So I started what I call a Tinker Project, which is basically big picture, a playful endeavor of any size that gives you permission to experiment with something that has been tugging at your soul without any regard to a particular outcome. So feeling this call to make art was tugging at me, and so, like you said, I decided once a week I am going to have a studio day, I am going to work on art. I decided I want to try to come up and make a hundred pieces of art. Last year I did 29, so it was definitely a stretch and so far, as of this call, we are about the end of March I am ahead of schedule. I think there are around 27 pieces that I have done. So I am almost to what I did last year and it is only the first quarter.

The key I think is that I do not have any expectation of what is going to come of it. It is not a goal like I am going to create 100 pieces and then sell them all or I am hoping to get this or I am hoping to get that. I will say a couple of years ago when I started making art again after a few years of sort of having a dry spell and not really doing much, I gave myself permission to tinker and just start making art and I did not have any goal with it other than to just get this out of me. It was one of the reasons that led to the book deal that I got for my last book Penguins Can’t Fly; I posted artwork online on Facebook and a book agent happened to find the art from a friend of a friend and she came to our website, she was like, “Oh my gosh, I love these. I hope he is not represented.” It was this whole magical sort of thing, but it was simply because of the decision to start making art again, even though I did not have a grand plan of what would come of it.

To me the most important thing about the Tinker Project is, it is about trusting that sometimes your heart has reasons for doing things that take a while for your head to understand. And because we are so in a results-oriented, rational society, we do not give our hearts enough weight. Sometimes we feel that tug and that pull to do something but it seems like there is reason behind it and it is self indulging, nothing good will come of it, it is selfish. Whatever it is, that sometimes there are reasons that we need to do it and trust that even if we cannot figure it out, we might figure out in hindsight.

Amy Climer: It is so true, that tug between the logic and the heart, and I think it causes a lot of problems. It gets in the way of creativity for sure.

Jason Kotecki: Yeah, definitely.

Amy Climer: Wow, that is a great story and your book is gorgeous. I love the book.

Jason Kotecki: Oh, thank you.

Amy Climer: I will link it in the shownotes. You all, if you are listening, go look at it. Beautiful, awesome, whimsical fun paintings in there and just great stories. It is like 40 rules that do not exist, right?

Jason Kotecki: Yup.

Amy Climer: That is great. I love hearing about this idea, okay, I am tinkering, I am playing with it and there is no expectation of the outcome and it seems like that is a big piece of tinkering.

Jason Kotecki: Right. It is a huge part of creativity, is it not, Amy? I talk a lot about children and what we can learn from kids. That is what they are doing all the time. They are tinkering, they are coloring, they are playing in the mud, they are doing all sorts of things and they do not necessarily have a reason attached to it all the time, but there are some really magical things that can bubble up when we give ourselves permission to just sort of play and see what happens, again with taking the pressure off that there needs to be some outcome attached to it.

Amy Climer: Yeah and when you were talking about making all this artwork I was thinking about this premise that quantity leads to quality. And if you are so worried about making the best, most amazing piece of art, then you just get stuck. If you are like, “Okay, I am going to make as many pieces as I can,” undoubtedly some of them are going to be great. Some of them maybe not so, like, “Whatever, I will show that to my wife and that is it,” but most of them, many of them will probably be quite good because you are just playing and you are practicing and you do not know what is going to come up. You have no clue what painting number 50 is going to look like.

Jason Kotecki: Right. And the thing with creativity is it is an iterative process where — I mean I think of okay, I am doing 100 pieces of art and part of me wonders that maybe piece number 79 is something that is going to go viral, or someone is going to sell, it will be the thing I am known for my entire career, maybe. But in order to get to number 79 I cannot just sit on my butt and imagine what that piece would be. 79 is going to be something I probably learned in 24 and experimented with and then pushed myself there and then that led to number 64 that was another shift that in order for me to get to 79, I have to do those pieces. And so the more quickly I can do those pieces, the more quickly I will get to what I am going to learn at that point. But you cannot just sit and just brainstorm like, “What is the perfect solution? What is the best way of doing that?” Because that is what business plans are. And business plans serve a purpose, but as soon as you start your business that pretty much goes out the window once reality hits it.

Amy Climer: Yeah. I think planning more than a year or two out is just a complete waste of time. And even then it is like well this is just a guess, we will see what happens.

Jason Kotecki: Right.

Amy Climer: It is like that premise of fail fast to succeed sooner. I think it is one of the things IDEO says a lot. I love that. I wonder if you could talk about one other example of tinkering that I read about on your blog, which was you traveling with your kids. You talked about how there are all these fears around traveling with little kids. Can you talk about that, about the kind of the messages you got about that and then what you did about it?

Jason Kotecki: Sure. Kim and I were married for eight years before we had our first child and she used to come with me quite a bit on my speaking engagements. Once people found out that Kim was pregnant, people said, “Oh, I guess your travelling is going to end because you cannot travel with kids,” and it is so much harder and all this stuff. And pretty much 99 percent of the people said that, but there was one woman who encouraged us and said that with her they had two little boys and they travelled all the time. When they were three years old they drove to the Grand Canyon and did all this stuff. And all we needed was that one example to prove that it could happen.

So my daughter Lucy was with us the first year she was on 34 flights, her first year of life. It was like practicing, it was tinkering. And now we have three kids and last summer we did a big road trip to promote the book, we drove about 4,000 miles with the kids. But there was a lot of intention in terms of what could we do to make our odds better. What kind of things could we help to make it not a disaster because there are bad things. When you travel with kids there are going to be times where you just cannot wait for a bus to just run into you, because you are just like that would be more preferable to what I am going through right now.

But I hear a lot of people who watch us and see our travels and they say, “Man, it would be so cool. I could never do that with my kids, I wish we could do that though.” And they seem to think that kids just magically wake up as amazing travelers, and they do not. It is practice. We have goals; we want to travel overseas with our kids in a couple of years. They are still going to be pretty young, but I think they will be able to handle it better because we try to do a lot of traveling now.

We really look at what we are doing when we travel with kids and we kind of up the ante a little bit. We are practicing and the kids get better and now I am able to go on trips with my daughter Lucy, like daddy-daughter business trips and she is amazing. When we are all together she is sort of like a third adult because she is pretty savvy about dealing with airports and all that kind of stuff. But I think it is important to realize that anything that — like I said earlier about Outliers and 10,000 hours, is that it all starts out pretty bad and disastrous.

The other thing that I think is worth pointing out is when you look ahead, you see all the bad stuff and it scares you. But when you look back, the bad things become part of the cool story. They are not actually these terrible things. I told the story in that post about my daughter Virginia blowing out her diaper in a car seat and it was the worst, Amy, it was terrible. We are going to dinner and we basically could not go to the restaurant anymore because everything was just exploded everywhere. We had to bring her back and clean it out with a spatula and it was just terrible. But we went back to Florida this year and it took us three days before we remembered that scenario. And when we did, we laughed about it and it became part of the story. And to think that that could have prevented us from going in the first place, like the bad things that would have happened, would have been a shame. Because in retrospect, the bad things sort of fade but the good memories get stronger as you look back.

Amy Climer: It is so true. I kind of love that about our brain, that we just sort of naturally remember, “Oh yeah, this was a cool experience,” and we kind of forget some of the bad stuff.

Jason Kotecki: I think that is how women are allowed to have more than one child. Because immediately after childbirth no woman is like, “Yeah, sign me up for that again.” But somehow that part fades and then they think of the good stuff and they are like, “All right, we will go at this again.”

Amy Climer: Yeah, exactly. That is awesome. So Jason, one of the things I do on this podcast each week is I offer listeners a weekly challenge where they can apply what they have learned and what they have heard. Do you have a challenge you want to throw out to listeners, maybe something about tinkering that they can do?

The Weekly Challenge [28:23]

Jason Kotecki: I would invite anyone listening to start their own Tinker Project. And like I said earlier, it does not have to be any particular — mine is a pretty big one, I am going to admit, a hundred pieces of art all year long, it does not have to be that crazy. It could just be like, “Okay, I am going to go to 24 new restaurants this year.” The goal is not that you want to be a successful food critic, but you just want to stretch your culinary comfort zone a little bit. Maybe you want to take a six week ballroom dancing class, not because you are trying to get ready to look good at a wedding reception, but because you think it might be fun. Or maybe you want to go on a morning walk and start taking pictures, not because you want to be a national geographic photographer, but because you just want to start playing with your creative side again.

So there is probably something in everyone listening that they kind of have this tug that their heart, their soul is kind of like, “Yeah, I kind of want to do that,” but because you cannot figure out how to make it a job or how to make it pay money or how to justify spending time on it, you do not do it. So my encouragement is to just start with your own Tinker Project and start playing with it and let yourself be free from any idea of what it is supposed to be. Just play with it. It might be a week long, it might be a month long, it might be a couple of days, whatever.

Amy Climer: I think one key there is just forget about the money. Forget about trying to make money or have some ultimate long term goal. It’s like just do this just because, just for fun, just to see what happens.

Jason Kotecki: It could end being a career that makes you $1 million, but that is not necessarily the point and you do not have to wait to figure out how it will make you $1 million before you start. It might just make you enjoy life a lot better, make you a better spouse, make you more creative for other parts of your life. There is a lot of benefits that can come from it. And like I said earlier, it is like trusting that your heart knows even if your head does not get it yet.

Amy Climer: Jason, any other advice you want to give folks before we close?

Jason Kotecki: I teamed up with a company called Snippet that makes these really cool eBooks that have these sort of discoverable pieces to it like videos and slide shows and stuff, and I actually have one just on tinkering. It usually cost $1.99 but I have a thing set up where you guys can get that for free. You go to www.escapeadulthood.com/tinker, you can get a link to the book with a coupon code so you can get it for free. It has basically got 20 little ideas and experiments to get you thinking and acting in more childlike ways, more creative ways and I would love to be able to offer that for free for you guys. I think you might check it out and might like it. So that is at www.escapeadulthood.com/tinker and you can find us, everything we are up to at www.escapeadulthood.com/.

Amy Climer: Awesome! Thank you so much for offering that for free. That is really generous of you.

Jason Kotecki: Sure.

Amy Climer: So if folks want to learn more about you they should go to www.escapeadulthood.com?

Jason Kotecki: That will work, yeah. Most social media stuff it is EscapeAdulthood, all one word, you can find us Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram..

Amy Climer: Awesome, cool. And you all if you are listening, go check out the website because it is gorgeous. There is just amazing artwork on there, great blog posts. You can kind of get lost in there for a little while, so be warned.

Jason Kotecki: Thank you.

Amy Climer: Jason, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I really appreciate it.

Jason Kotecki: My pleasure. Thanks Amy.

Amy Climer: Thank you so much Jason for being on The Deliberate Creative Podcast. Awesome to have a great conversation with you. You all, if you want a link to everything that Jason mentioned, you can go to the shownotes, which can be found at www.climerconsulting.com/043. So head on over there, you can check out Jason’s newest book, which is awesome. I have a copy. It is this cute little small book. It makes a great gift if you are looking for a good gift for somebody. You will also find the link to the free eBook that he offered to all of us, and his website which, like I said before, you can get completely lost and engrossed in. It is really fun. So go check that out and try the tinkering project, try the challenge that Jason gave you and share it in the shownotes. Head on over to that same page, www.climerconsulting.com/043 and add a comment. What tinkering project are you going to try? What are you going to commit to? I would love to hear your thoughts.

You all, have a wonderful week, go out and tinker, go out and be more creative, change the world. Talk to you next time, bye.

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